Sophrosyne Stenvaag ([info]sophrosyne_sl) wrote,
@ 2007-08-13 15:02:00
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Entry tags:digital people, ideas, news

Time and Multi- World Polyamory
There's been a few high-profile articles about the sociology of SL lately: "A House That's Just Unreal" from the New York Times, "Is This Man Cheating on His Wife?" from the Wall Street Journal, and one that hasn't gotten around as much: "Burning The Virtual Shoe Leather" from the Columbia Journalism Review (thanks, Centrasian Wise, for that link!)

I passed on commenting on the last round of media attention, that focused on corporate disillusionment with SL- it just didn't seem fair to shoot the fish in *that* barrel of obviousness.  But these three articles are interesting: they focus on culture and identity - subjects of great interest to me/  I think what they're showing is the spread into mainstream culture of the notion that SL is a place, and Residents are people. Of course, the NYT is somewhat open, the WSJ reactionary, and the CJR genial and incisive, but all that was to be expected from what those publications are. But all three articles pick up on the *placeness* of SL, as opposed to seeing it as a communications or sales medium.


Multi-World Polyamory

One thing that fascinated me about the NYT and WSJ pieces was the glimpse of multi-world polyamory.


Both articles featured people who were married in the atomic world and partnered to other people in SL, with the consent (even if it's grudging in the WSJ case) of their atomic partners. There's natural hype around virtual cheating, as there is around anything mildly titillating and scandalous, but this is more interesting. This consensual multi-world polyamory suggests a couple things to me:  that monogamous marriage as a sole cultural option is deader than the toga, and that the pliability of identity is a lot more common than we're led to believe.

Let's look at the WSJ title question. Ric's SL av, Dutch, who Ric identifies with maybe more strongly than with his atomic av, is partnered with Tenaj.  Ric's atomic partner, Sue, knows all this.  Is Ric cheating?  Well, if cheating means "acting without your partner's knowledge and consent," clearly not.  If cheating means "violating the cultural expectation of monogamy," clearly yes.  The first one is just bad: lying by omission is bad karma, period.  The second is interesting, even if my response is "it's nobody's business but theirs."

A lot of people in the atomic - and far too many in the digital - get all bent when other people ignore cultural values (whether they conform to them themselves or not!).  I think this happens when people who fear change see that it's already happening - the backlash of the last dodos,  you could say.  Gay marriage, polyamory, multiple autonomous identities - the old ways have fallen.  "One sexual partner for life" in practical terms died out with "One job for life." With life spans lengthening, and both serial lives (reinventing yourself every so often in new careers, cities, relationships) and parallel lives (atomic and digital) becoming commonplace, the whole notion of one of anything forever is just unprocessable gibberish. That's self-evident. The change has happened.  Yes, reactionary attacks are dangerous, and they can and do cause a lot of pain and harm.  But there's no reversing time's arrow.

Ric's situation has some more layers to it, though.  Dutch has a great life in SL - a happy partnership, an interesting and profitable business, a wide network of friends.  Ric, on the other hand, has become a finance vehicle for Dutch: Ric earns a $USD income to support Dutch, and that's about it for Ric: he's clearly neglected his partner, and has no effective existence beyond that paycheck.  So, yeah, Sue, who partnered with Ric expecting a *person* there, has been pretty much abandoned. Two worlds, one life, arguably one person: Dutch, in SL.

If that's the case, shouldn't Dutch have all the things that go along with personhood: credit, identity papers, citizenship - and shouldn't Ric be treated as a - well, a servant, an avatar, a projection of Dutch to accomplish certain things?  Kind of like the Professional Corporations that doctors have - shouldn't Ric just be Dutch, PC, while Dutch is the legal *person*?

Likewise, you all know how badly I want all that stuff that our laws and culture give to *people.*  Not citizenship in some atomic nation, goddess forbid  - you atomic people can keep *that* bunch of bad ideas!  But a bank account, acknowledgement that I'm a person.   The CJR article talks about that in a way that's very insightful.  The author argues against traditional media's insistence on tying a Digital Person's comments to some atomic person for attribution.  It makes sense if the DP is claiming something in the atomic world - claiming to be a veteran, or present at the scene of a crime, two cases mentioned in the article.  But if the DP is only discussing the digital world, verify their digital claims, but ignore the atomic!

Interview me?  Okay.  Then you're welcome to contact my landlord, my employer, my family.  Place of residence, occupation, relationships - they're all public, all part of my verifiable identity.  But I don't *have* an atomic existence that I'm making claims about - so why try to verify something I'm *telling* you doesn't exist?!  Go verify that it *doesn't,* that I really am only a Digital Person!



Sucking the Atomic Dry

How many of us are tempted down that road that Ric went down? To suck the atomic person dry, to turn them into nothing more than a wetware server and paycheck to support *our* more interesting and successful lives?

I went pretty far down that road, with the consent of the Other Personality, this summer.  I took over.  When I was born, OP had a very responsible and demanding job, an active and delightful social network, hobbies and interests, personal and professional commitments - a rich and satisfying life. OP came into SL to explore the possibility of taking that to the next step, of finding another social outlet.  Then, I awoke and kicked OP out of SL - and, over the next month, largely out of the atomic as well.

OP was okay with this - the other side of OP's success was having taken no time off, no down time, in years.  OP was transitioning jobs, and had nearly 10 weeks of vacation and sick time to burn through first.  OP was *fine* with going offline completely while I lived nearly 24/7.

It went too far, of course.  My appetites are *never* moderate, and I took too much.  OP was pretty well down the road to being a Ric. The one thing that allowed the situation to continue was, we both knew it would come to an end in the Fall.

Fall's here. And, the funny thing is, *I'm* pretty okay.  I'd love another month: I'm blossoming.  My energy is up, I'm happier than I've been, I'm starting a new round of projects, and enjoying my life more, and more deeply, than ever. My life is so good, I could cry tears of gratitude. Even so, I don't mind what I *think* my time and energy limits will be.  They're workable, and I think I'll be able to have time for everyone in my family, despite their time zone dispersal, and for at least some of the things I want to do.  And, working within limits will build character!  :P

OP, though?  Really *likes* being irresponsible for once. 

In a reversal of Ric's situation, it's digital me pushing atomic OP to get its act together and get a life - it needs to, to enable mine.  OP's not in a clock-punching position - it has to network, think, show up, build contacts - have a life, in order to support mine.  I've been pushing OP all day to work on a project due next week: *I* want it done early, so I can have my weekend.  OP is wishing it would just go away.  I lost this round - hence, blogging in the middle of work time.  I'm good, but I can't out-stubborn that one!  :)

We've both been reading Ray Kurzweil's The Singularity is Near, which makes a very good case for complete personality uploads to digital substrate within 20 years.  Barring accidents, the wetware, and OP and I, will be around then, no question.  Until then, it looks like we have to live with each other, and somehow cram two overcommitted lives into every wetware day.


So, Where are *We*?

The NYT painted  a pretty happy, if somewhat superficial, picture of multiple world management.  The WSJ gave us a bleak one.  I'm confident my story's going to be NYT material:  OP will get back into work, and will claim back more of its own life.  I'll learn to live within limits.

I'd love to hear from *you,* though (even if "you" is just my immediate family who feels sort of obligated to read the occasional Soph-rant!) - how have you balanced worlds, identities and loves?


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[info]vidaltripsa
2007-08-14 08:29 am UTC (link)
One downside always looms at me when I consider the upload of a personality or the split between digital and 'atomic'. Yes, it may soon be possible to form a divide between these worlds, but then this is akin to cloning. I will no longer share a consciousness with my digital self, and what will come of that? This is the main reason I've decided to abandon the dual-personality aspect. If we were split, neither of us could bear each other's loss, and we are working towards mutual gain in both worlds.

In the Real World, I'm battling the evils of debt and trying to get out more. But I'm also working to put a little aside for part-owning a sim and mainatining my shopping habits. In-world I'm a lot more leisurely, but I still build often with the intention of selling, and if I understand Gala's dream well enough, I could be putting my own money into an investment opportunity there in this as-yet imaginary sim.

Of course, relationships are a whole other kettle of fish. It's blissfully simple so far in that I'm single in Real World terms, but goodness knows if I could actually manage should I find love out there too. The good thing that you, Argent and I share so far is that monogamy need not be a factor, but I'm not one who handles conflicting interests well. Perhaps the solution would be to bring any future girlfriend into SL with me? ^_^;;

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[info]sophrosyne_sl
2007-08-14 04:14 pm UTC (link)
My dear, I've seen you integrating the past week or so, and I think it's good. Your two identities do seem to be pretty much one in personality, goals and interests. You're really showing the kind of mutual benefit that Kate advocates, and I know great things are ahead for you in both worlds.

And you *know* anyone you'd fall in love with and bring over, from whatever world, will be welcome - as long as they're good to you, and if not, I'll shred them!

In the meantime: you, and I, and Argent.... it's veryvery good!

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[info]vidaltripsa
2007-08-14 04:28 pm UTC (link)
Oh, goodness yes. I may be all for integration (as abstract as it may be for my real self to still be a comfortable plastic doll for your bidding..), but I maintain that a firmer digital experience would do me absolute wonders. My 'OP' would have no issues uploading itself to be closer to you, Argent and the family. :)

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[info]argent_bury
2007-08-14 05:11 pm UTC (link)
Vidal, I think we're all integrated to one degree or another, how much depends on the person. Frankly, I try not to look too hard at it and just experience things here to the fullest.

As for you finding a RL love, I can wish you nothing but happiness in that regard, whatever the effects on our relationship here. As I've said to Soph before, our relationships may change over time, but I think they will always be good ones.

Please do choose a good one if you do, though. I can already imagine you bringing them in to SL and Soph and I raking them over the coals...

*Soph and Argent both focus their piercing gazes on the hapless suitor*

Soph:"So, just what are your intentions towards our Vidal?"

Argent:"Are you going to be able to support her in the manner she's accustomed to?"

Suitor:(sweats nervously and fidgets in the tiny chair set in the middle of the room)"OK...gotta go now."

Vidal:"Wait...come back!"

Soph and Argent:"Don't cry hon, they weren't right for you anyway."


*laughs* OK, maybe we won't be quite that strict. Regardless, I'm just glad you're here with us now.

Love,
Argent

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[info]vidaltripsa
2007-08-14 05:39 pm UTC (link)
Hahahah! Love, that's superb. Glad to know my future's in safe hands. XD

Hee, as much as I never thought I'd say this a year ago, I'm contented enough with my relationships online. You all mean so much to me no matter how much of me is augmented.. perhaps I'd feel a little guilty meeting even an appropriate suitor in a bar somewhere. Like a.. married woman or something. ;P

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[info]sophrosyne_sl
2007-08-15 03:42 am UTC (link)
*nods and laughs*

Oh yes, we *would* be that strict!

Argent would *totally* play the grizzled, slightly crazy combat vet, and I'd be all, "oh, let me show you how we dispose of bodies in the dungeon..." :P

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[info]http://getopenid.com/dandellion
2007-08-14 10:12 am UTC (link)
We're doing fine, thank you :)
We both know who's realm belongs to whom. Only problem being time, days are sometimes too short for both of us getting what we want. Especially during the summer. Winter was much better, RLdandellion hates going out when it is cold so it is more time for me.
We had luck, though, that our mother tongues are different (http://metaverse.acidzen.org/2007/avatars-mother-tongue). It really helps keeping personalities separated and autonomus. And other lucky moment was a relationship that was happening in meatspace during those first months. I had an opportunity to develop emotionally and sexually without fear of getting busted, without burdens or any kind of pressure.

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[info]sophrosyne_sl
2007-08-14 04:16 pm UTC (link)
dandellion! hi!!

I love that you two have different languages: that may be the single coolest identity thing I've come across.

And I'm glad to hear about your time of growth - I hope you can find ways for it to continue!

Let's meet sometime soon!

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I'm here
[info]londonspengler
2007-08-14 10:41 am UTC (link)
*smiles warmly* I am here and I come all the days and read you, because I like it... sorry I don't comment often, I love your insight on the physical/digital world dichotomy, but time is, well, complex :-p

*sends you a hug*

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Re: I'm here
[info]sophrosyne_sl
2007-08-14 04:17 pm UTC (link)
*hugs you hard*

Thanks, London, so very much!

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[info]cyfishy
2007-08-14 01:03 pm UTC (link)
I still hold out hope for a one-partner-for-life arrangement, but I think of it as a rare and very precious thing. And, more importantly, I do not expect others to think exactly the same way.

My last RL relationship just came crashing down (very recently--I'm still recovering from the break) precisely because I could no longer handle being one of many. I can't blame the other person for 'infidelity' because I knew from the start what I was getting into. I thought I would be able to accept it and take things lightly, particularly with the understanding that it was never meant to be a permanent thing.

However, even knowing it wasn't going to last does not ease the pain one iota when it does have to end. Trust me on this one.

The RL relationship had an SL overlap, which is why I'm bringing it up here. I'm being very veiled about the details, because I'm not in a dirty-laundry-hanging mood and I hope to remain friends with this person.

I've heard many stories of love affairs that blossomed online and withered when the lovers met in the flesh. I've likewise heard stories of affairs that actually flourished after the face to face meeting. The first man I ever fell in love with met the woman he eventually married in the relatively early days of online interaction. They remain together. So you see what can happen.

I think it honestly depends on what your expectations are. I do agree that it's only cheating if you're breaking the rules. It really depends on the relationship itself, and the people within it, so it's truly not a one-size-fits-all situation.

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[info]sophrosyne_sl
2007-08-14 04:27 pm UTC (link)
Cyfishy, thanks so much for commenting - it's good to hear from you!

Oh, I think I understand how you feel about your breakup.... I was just on the other side of one here in SL. People are different in their needs and expectations, and rational understanding and acceptance only takes you so far. Your heart needs what your heart needs, and that's definitely not one-size-fits-all! :)

I *think* - and I may be overgenralizing or just talking out my ass here - that what helps make a relationship work when it transitions from the digital to the atomic is if both (or more!) people recognize that they're *starting a new relationship.* That the person their digital self has grown close to is not going to be exactly the same one they're about to meet in the atomic, no matter what.

Starting over clean and getting to know the atomic person in front of you - that can build to last. Thinking you're getting the same person? Mmmm..... probably not... I think there are *always* differences, even in the most integrated personalities, because there are things that don't translate: body language, personal habits, ways of expressing yourself that don't have an analog in one world or the other.

But, not something I know a lot about, so I'm going to stop here! :)

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[info]cyfishy
2007-08-14 08:00 pm UTC (link)
I *think* - and I may be overgenralizing or just talking out my ass here - that what helps make a relationship work when it transitions from the digital to the atomic is if both (or more!) people recognize that they're *starting a new relationship.* That the person their digital self has grown close to is not going to be exactly the same one they're about to meet in the atomic, no matter what.

That is an extremely insightful observation. You might even think of it as a "blind date" in a way--this is a person you've been told a lot about, maybe even communicated with, but meeting in the flesh is always a very different experience. And, as people know, sometimes blind dates are disastrous and sometimes they're the beginning of beautiful relationships.

I think that observation can probably be reversed, too--Miles and I met in RL first and later in SL. It's taken me a while to adjust to the notion that Miles in SL and the person Miles is in RL are very similar, but not entirely the same.

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[info]sophrosyne_sl
2007-08-15 03:43 am UTC (link)
Ooo, if those differences are something you'd we willing to talk about, I'd be fascinated! FL-to-SL is one I haven't come across before!

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[info]cyfishy
2007-08-15 01:51 pm UTC (link)
It's a bit tricky to talk about, because I don't want to get into too many RL details--I'm pretty open about my RL, but I don't want to reveal more about Miles' OP than Miles herself wishes to reveal.

The short version, which I've mentioned in my own blog, goes like this--Miles and I (or, rather, Miles' OP and my OP) met at a party in RL and discovered that one of the things we had in common was Second Life. It actually took us something like a month to finally cross paths in SL, because my access was limited by the fact that I had to use a borrowed computer at the time.

It became a once-a-week thing for us and eventually I bought my own computer so I could play daily. And I've been hooked ever since.

I have two other very dear RL friends who are just getting into SL for academic reasons (literally!) I haven't had a chance to meet up with them in SL yet, but it should be interesting when it happens.

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[info]sophrosyne_sl
2007-08-15 06:53 pm UTC (link)
That's a fine amount of detail - and a great story! Thank you!

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[info]ali_hermes
2007-08-15 03:36 pm UTC (link)
Well, I can totally identify with the problems of going from an online to offline relationship, both in the nature of friendships and romance. I am pretty much the same whatever world I'm in. Society's morals tend to be more restrictive in RL than in SL, and so I tend to be more reserved, both to avoid bothering people and to avoid potential problems.

I've found that in every case where I've met someone in RL after getting to know them online though is that eventually those difference create a barrier. Everyone is slightly different depending on situation, and the gulf between the atomic and digital is a big one. So whether it's been just flat out misrepresentation, major differences in personality or expectation, or just getting to know someone and eventually drifting apart as friends often do, people come and go.

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[info]argent_bury
2007-08-14 04:52 pm UTC (link)
Wow...tough questions all around.

I don't know if Ric is cheating on his wife in sexual terms, but he's certainly not upholding his half of their relationship. Worst case, if his RL wife means that little to him he should consider a divorce. But as you say, Ric is little more than a shell now, Dutch has become the real person.

The opposite extreme of the SL/RL balance are the pawn avatars you meet here sometimes. You've seen them, the ones with nothing in their profile, no groups registered, no friends - people who pop in here for an hour or two a week to grief people or try to pick up girls in the newbie areas. They have no connections, no life here, and are little more than soulless toys.

Frankly, reading about Ric made OP about as sick to their stomach as I feel when I meet one of these pawns in-world. Either extreme on the scale just creeps us out.

As for myself, OP has plenty of RL commitments, and frankly very little negotiable free time to let me run around. I'd love more time here, especially because of the connections I feel towards my friends and lovers here. Thing is, even if none of you will ever meet the "real" me, I still have to live with them, and I don't want to share a mind with a deadbeat like Ric above. So here's what we do...


OP lets me in-world enough that I can keep a reasonable level of existence here - take care of my friends and loves, go shopping, and occasionally try to do something productive...

I understand that sucking up all of OP's free time is going to turn them into a deadbeat who can't keep their own RL commitments and live as a person, and I understand that this will reflect on me as a person too. So I try to give them enough free time to live their own life and keep their own commitments...

We seem to be doing OK so far, but as always time will tell.

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[info]vidaltripsa
2007-08-14 05:58 pm UTC (link)
*Sheds a tear for the soulless toys*

I know how you mean with those dead souls though. I'm all for profile privacy, and I can't ignore the 'un-realistic' aspect of these factsheets (I know full well that in real life, we can't look at a person's profile as they sit across the pub), but for a world like SL with its own rules, I think there's definitely a limit.

I perceive profiles as a substitute for body language in this realm. An avatar without a profile is like a barfly, face-down in the bar and mumbling drunken chat-up lines to you. Not an appealing prospect in either realm, nuh-uh.

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[info]argent_bury
2007-08-14 06:15 pm UTC (link)
It's funny...they don't even have to have anything in their 1st Life tab for me to be ok. I don't have much there myself so I can't say much. For me, I just want to see something, anything, in their SL profile tab.

An avatar without a profile is like a barfly, face-down in the bar and mumbling drunken chat-up lines to you.

For me it's even more intense, especially with profileless male AVs. They feel less like drunks and more like stalkers or potential serial killers to me. When they chat me up I feel this wave of fear and revulsion wash over me. It's like this guy with a totally toneless voice, no expression, and eyes that look right through you, confronting you in a dark alley. I keep feeling myself reaching for my gun, until I remember I don't carry one. It even bleeds over into OP and they forget they can always just TP me home with a keystroke. Intellectually I know I can just ignore them, but still...

Scary...they're just scary.

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[info]sophrosyne_sl
2007-08-15 03:46 am UTC (link)
I *fully* agree with you...

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[info]sophrosyne_sl
2007-08-15 03:45 am UTC (link)
"I still have to live with them, and I don't want to share a mind with a deadbeat like Ric above."

"I understand that sucking up all of OP's free time is going to turn them into a deadbeat who can't keep their own RL commitments and live as a person, and I understand that this will reflect on me as a person too."

Perfect, and utterly wise, my love - just perfect.

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Media as Identity
[info]casiusmasala
2007-08-14 07:19 pm UTC (link)
If I was a poet who used a pen-name my poet-self could be accused of sucking my "real" self dry. I could be a rock star like Prince or Alice Cooper and shun my given name and identity. In daily life there are more subtle ways to loose you name and identity - the wife who takes on her husbands name and gives up her job and long hair to be a mother, the teacher who dresses in conservative clothes and is called "Mr." - Second Life just makes the trade in identity more obvious. It makes the choices clear.

As far as the impact on relationships... I may be too new at SL to comment on this. My wife of 14 years read the WSJ article and I have been careful to show her extra attention since. She knows me well enough - how I would have three wives in real life if it could be managed. However, I must always love her best. I am not at all confident that relationships on SL live long enough or run deep enough to compare with atomic relationships. Sometimes it's like being hungry and only smelling the food. It does smell nice...

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Re: Media as Identity
[info]nox_pinion
2007-08-15 06:11 am UTC (link)
Very well put.

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[info]ali_hermes
2007-08-15 04:05 pm UTC (link)
In regards to the story of Ric and Dutch, there are a couple of things I noticed that people haven't talked about really I'd like to point out as I think are important.

First and obviously, the point of the article was obviously skewed to the 'online relationships are bad and ruin real realationships.' I have no doubt that they interviewed several people and did some research to find the worst case scenario that they could. I found it particularly telling that they didn't have any discussion with the third part of the triangle. They showed a picture of the person behind Tenaj, but there was not discussion with her included. Clearly they had to contact her to get permission to include her name and pictures, but they didn't want her side of the story.

Also I noticed that Dutch was a younger carbon copy of Ric. Same hair, same general look, same tastes and interests. Also add in the information that they added almost as an aside that he suffered some sort of illness and it seems pretty obvious that he is living in SL what he can no longer do in RL. That and things that he probably wishes he could do but didn't, like marry a red head and run a strip club.

Certainly there is nothing wrong with that, and I'm in full support of that as a very good use for Second Life. On the other hand, according to the article he's completely ignoring his atomic life. He's estranged his wife, barely acknowledges things like food or physical needs and spends up to 14 hours a day in SL.

Now obviously the article was trying to bring the worst case to light here, so I take what they say with a huge block of salt, but any thing that you spend that much time on is not just a casual thing or a game, or even a job. It's an obsession. I would say that Ric probably does need some sort of intervention, and that his RL wife really needs to step up to the plate. Clearly she's not happy in the situation, but sitting on the couch and hoping it will get better won't make that happen.

As far as the 'is it cheating' angle? Well, I think it's pretty telling that his RL wife found out about it purely by accident, and he disregarded her problems with it by saying 'it's just a game'. Pure case of rationalizing something he realized as wrong by minimizing the importance. As I've always said, there's nothing wrong with polyamory, so long as everyone involved is aware of everyone else and is okay with it. Not just willing to put up with the different partnerships, but accepting of them all.

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[info]sophrosyne_sl
2007-08-15 07:03 pm UTC (link)
*Really* good points, love.

Yeah, the "accidental discovery" thing is textbook bad-polyamory. And ignoring Tenaj/Janet's side really is telling, isn't it? Because the story's all about the conservative institution of marriage, and SL's OMG!THREAT! to that - Dutch/Tenaj's successful partnership, and whatever *Janet* might be gaining - that doesn't fit the narrative of !!MARRIAGE UNDER ASSAULT!! that the conservatives so love...

And, yeah, Ric's behaviors look like a pretty far gone addiction, like the stories of crack addicts in its heyday, or drunks one step up from the street. He does need intervention, based on what we were told.

OTOH, in defense of 14 hour Saturdays... :) If he really doesn't get on that much during the week because of work, that's not that unreasonable. I may be looking at something like that myself (though I do feed and bathe the wetware, you'll be glad to know!).

This Sunday turned into one of those: while OP and I had other plans, I came on to build for an hour and a half, then you and Vids showed up, then Argent - then there was only an hour left till London's party, so why not stay on? And after the party, I wanted to build for another hour and leave till I saw Gala was on - but she came on during that hour, and we got our only time for the week... and I ended up logging 12 hours later. Knowing that I wouldn't see anyone again till Thursday night....

Addictive? Nah. Undisciplined, I'll give you. But well worth it, and OP will finish reading that book tonight... :)

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[info]ali_hermes
2007-08-15 07:35 pm UTC (link)
Oh sure, the occasional long time session now and then is no big deal. And they did point out that the was rebuilding his entire coffee house, which anyone who's actually played knows is a huge undertaking. But they also mentioned how he took a break by going motorcycle riding in SL instead of RL, and sitting back and having a beer in SL while doing the same thing in RL... sitting at a desk drinking while just watching his avatar sitting at a desk drinking... Mind you, I've never understood the desire for people to do things like drink and smoke or the like in SL... it's not like you're getting any physical effects from it. But I guess a simulation of life is enough for some people.

The big though is, the article at least was implying that such things were the norm for him. That SL had pretty much taken over and he was living his life through SL, from the time he woke till the time he went to bed. In some situation, that could be acceptable, but not when it's cutting out the rest of his RL family. Which of course was the point the article was trying to make..

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[info]kateamdahl
2007-08-23 08:34 pm UTC (link)
Hi sweetie.

I had read that Wall Street Journal article too (not because the Journal is part of my daily reading, as many who know me will have guessed!), and I don't come away with the same impression as you. Ric doesn't have Sue's consent: he has her inaction. She seems not to like the situation at all, but to feel she has no right to change it. It looked to me as though virtual worlds were entirely new ground for her, and that she was accepting Ric's statement that "It's just a game." There's nothing left of that dead horse (whether or not it's a game) to beat, but clearly Ric is using virtual reality to have an extramarital relationship. (He doesn't claim that his virtual reality self is a separate person, now: he refers to that person as himself.)

Without going off on too much a rant about what constitutes an individual person, I'd put it this way: a love relationship requires trust, effort, time, attention, and priority. If some of those things are used for another relationship, it takes away from the first relationship. If we look at a physical individual, who has only 24 hours in each day and only a given amount of attention to invest in the world, then it doesn't matter whether that individual thinks of himself or of herself as being separate people when we look at what happens to the original relationship.

Ric could just as well be spending his days daydreaming and writing love poetry to a fictional character, or going down the street to spend the day with a girlfriend, for the effect it's having on his First Life relationship.

And that's why I don't think that the monogamous relationship is in any more danger than it ever has been. There are more ways now to have multiple relationships, but the basic math of the thing hasn't changed: more relationships means less time and connection in each relationship, so that a healthy monogamous relationship has the potential to be stronger than any polygamous relationship that person could have.

That doesn't mean there's anything necessarily wrong with polygamy, as long as everyone involve actively consents (instead of standing aside out of a sense of powerlessness, as Sue seems to be doing), but it does mean that the results are just the same as they would be with multiple First Life relationships, even if the means are more convenient.

On the idea that there's no Sue in your life, Soph, I don't think your situation is anything like his, either, so don't take my disapproval toward him as applying to you!

^^^\ Kate /^^^

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[info]sophrosyne_sl
2007-08-24 03:16 pm UTC (link)
Kate, I agree with you about Sue's disempowerment, totally.

But... I'm going to *ask* this, because I have no clue as to what the answer is. Is another lover any more, or different, an impediment to a primary relationship than - a demanding job, a consuming hobby, going golfing or hanging out at the bar with buddies?

To be sure, you pile enough of those things on, and there's no time left for the primary... but is that really the issue?

***

"more relationships means less time and connection in each relationship, so that a healthy monogamous relationship has the potential to be stronger than any polygamous relationship that person could have."

Oh, Kate, I couldn't disagree with that more. Maybe there are monogamous relationships out there that are sane and balanced. But? IMO, in most of them the participants expect (consciously or not, admittedly or not) that their partner will be their everything: best friend, best lover, perfect match in interest and temperament, a mirror of themselves.

And, that's just about impossible.

Polyamory recognizes that. Polyamory also *can* be a solution to the time problem: I now have less time *total* in world than I used to have *calendared* with my partner, and I have four loves, four partners in effect. How does that work? Gods, I miss them and they miss me. But, they have each other. Gala and Argent can play rocket soccer, Ali and Vidal go exploring, Vidal and Argent have a hot date.... and I feel a little less horrible for being away.

Monogamy made sense when people were one person, in one place, their whole lives. When we move, change, grow, as fast and as often as we do in either world? It's certainly not for everybody, and I don't think it's a reasonable solution to our needs for love and companionship, in the lives we actually lead.

But, as with everything, YMMV.

And, I know you meant your last comment to apply to the atomic world, but... it got me to stop, and look at my life, and think of my answer. Which is, no, I don't have a Sue in my life, and now and in the future I'm going to be *very careful* to ensure I don't. It's not a good thing.

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[info]kateamdahl
2007-08-24 09:14 pm UTC (link)
Hi Sweetie!

You asked, "Is another lover any more, or different, an impediment to a primary relationship than - a demanding job, a consuming hobby, going golfing or hanging out at the bar with buddies?"

That's a good point, and I think you're right that it's not entirely different, but I would say too that different activities require different kinds of attention, and not all of those kinds of attention hurt a romantic relationship. For instance, I go to exercise classes every week, and the time I spend there is probably more help than hurt to time I might spend with a lover.

I think you've found a flaw in what I had to say about monogamy and polygamy, that I was try to compare one monogamous relationship with one polygamous relationship. If you compare all of a person's polygamous relationships with all (that is, just one) of a person's monogamous relationships, then the math is much more even, so what I've said only matters if you're concerned about the relationship between two people instead of the relationships among a group of people.

^^^\ Kate /^^^

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