Sophrosyne Stenvaag ([info]sophrosyne_sl) wrote,
@ 2007-08-15 10:58:00
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Entry tags:digital people, ideas

Immersionists are Luddites??
Okay, now I'm just annoyed. I went to comment on a post that was cited in the Second Life Insider yesterday, and apparently not only do you have to *donate to the organization* to comment on their posts, the form to do so doesn't load!

And these people call themselves "futurists!"

Giulio Prisco of the Institute for Ethics and Emerging Technologies wrote:

I believe those who say NO to voice and “Real Life 2.0”, most of them first-generation residents interested in Second Life as an “alternate reality”, are simply stuck with a preconceived notion of Second Life as _only_ a role playing game for immersionists and are unable (or unwilling) to adapt to this quite radical “change of the nature of the game”. They conceive their (and others’) Second Life only within the narrow area defined by their early role playing experiences, and resist change - even if nothing is going to change for them personally if they don’t want to.
He goes on to basically call us Luddites and the last of a dying species:

This will be a _very_ radical change of the nature of the game, and of course there will be those who will prefer to stay in the old comfortable game instead of embracing change and moving on. They will conceive their (and others’) life only within the narrow area defined by the experiences of earlier generations, and resist change - even if nothing is going to change for them personally if they don’t want to. I am sure that nobody will force them to upgrade to Life 3.0, and there will be “immersionist” communities for persons who choose to remain immersed in human biology and its limitations.

Here's what I wanted to post in reply (showing that, yes, despite your expectations, I actually *can* control my temper sometimes!):

I think you missed the implications of your own argument from transhumanism.

Your analogy between "old-time" immersionist residents and opponents of transhumanism is precisely reversed (in addition to being a miscategorization in the first instance: I was rezzed in April 2007, and am one of a great many immersionists rezzed this year).

Augmentationists who see SL as, essentially, a telephone - another communications medium for business as usual - are viewing this technology as if it were a "horseless carriage" - just like something old and familiar, rather than an "automobile" - a new thing in itself. They insist on the literal equating of the unaugmented human into the new space: gender=gender, age=age, species=species.

Immersionists *are* transhumanists. We reject the view that a person is its body. We are furries, gynoids, merfolk, dragons. We view personality and identity as the constructs of will, not the legacy of genetics.

We are your allies, not the ignorant bigots who demand to know "A/S/L" - age, sex, location - in the atomic world immediately on meeting someone in the digital world.

We are out here already *being* transhumanist. Augmentationists, especially the ones you've been listening to, with their spurious statistics on genderbending - which reveal their own deep fear of transhumanist category shattering - are the reactionary rear guard of a dying way of life.

Come to my blog. Go to my profile, and from there look at the blogs of my Immersionist friends. Take an honest and objective look at what you see there, and decide for yourself if we're old fuddy-duddies, or if we are in fact living just the life you advocate.


Of course, Guilio will never read this, never see that he's been misled by corporate interests and cultural reactionaries.  And the Institute for Ethics and Emerging Technologies?  Has a very interesting take on participating in public discourse, don't they?

ETA:  I found that Giulio cross-posted to his own blog, which *does* allow comments. I dropped a short comment inviting him here.  Let's see what happens...



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[info]vidaltripsa
2007-08-15 07:38 pm UTC (link)
I count three instances of Second Life being called a game.

I *hate* it when people label SL as a game. Where, pray tell, are the rules that dictate the nature of this 'game'? I can't argue that the program is a role-playing tool and that it does facilitate play within users' own gaming constructs, but every time SL is compared with the likes of World Of Warcraft or Final Fantasy by being called an MMORPG, it makes my pedantic blood boil. I thought I'd say this in particular as it seems a bitter contradiction for a post which deals with such progression of ideas. Not being a game is what makes SL so advanced and unique; this is why I joined.

Well, anyway, now I've gotten over myself, this has provoked some good thoughts in my crowded noggin. Once more, the doll within me that inhabits this virtual world has to re-think her existence, find out who she is and how she can express herself in SL. She can't use Voice, as her body is virtual. She has no organic presence. I realise this now. What the fleshy me is thinking, however, is of course bigger.

I completely fail to see how Voice offers anything above the experience we have now, other than sheer convenience. I like the idea of not having to type any more. It'll save my fingers a lot of work. But in a world where I can be a mermaid one day and a cyberdoll the next, why on Earth would I want a voice there? My personalities would be dulled, monotonised.. made ridiculous, as with my limited voice, no-one would believe I were a doll. I'd like to think my voice is versatile, but my goodness. I think it fair to say that around 2/3 of the impression I give out to others is entirely down to their own imagination. I can dress however I like and speak with whichever mannerisms I see fit, but in the same way I imagine your voice, Soph, and the way you may react to certain things, I'm hoping that other Residents get their own idea of me.

Those are ideas that advance well beyond the fleshy realm in which we do use our voices. Here, I can be conversing in a whole other language if you wanted to translate it internally, or be speaking with rasping digital voice effects. But my organic voice can't do that, and if that's not a step backwards I don't know what is.

Okay, now, that probably makes very little sense indeed. I havem't even had time to re-read my post, so.. apologies in advance if I sound like a ranting imbecile. ^^;

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[info]sophrosyne_sl
2007-08-16 11:36 pm UTC (link)
No no no - you make *perfect* sense, and were beautifully eloquent. I think you stated the Immersionist case wonderfully: voice is a killer of creativity, for those of us who aren't trained in using it as an instrument. It's about as anti-imagination as body odor. Which is why it's become such a hot-button issue: the people who want imagination out of SL seize on it as the key to "verification," to ensuring that no creativity is happening on their watch.

Now you've got me thinking though - I want to start sounding different to myself, and maybe text-speaking differently when I'm in my borg forms..... cool!

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We should avert our eyes.
[info]casiusmasala
2007-08-15 09:42 pm UTC (link)
Second Life is not a game. Second Life is "Something Else". Personally, I am disinclined to create big words out of little words to define the "Something Else". There is an entire branch of fiction that explores the possibilities. However, to call media a game is like calling poetry a game or drama a game. As I recall the ancient Greeks considered drama a sacred and dangerous magic - I think Second Life is closer to that line of thought. To call such things games is more than a lie, it is a blasphemy. We should avert our eyes.

As an active participant I confess that concepts like Augmentationists and Immersionist and transhumanism are somewhat lost on me. It seems to imply that I can control how Second Life changes me based on my "philosphy" or my personal metaphor. I create and I play and I love and I am changed. I don't feel like I am steering the change based on how I accept voice or how I see myself - hell, right now that seems like a crack addict waxing poetic about the pipe. The world and I dance and "Something Else" arises. The art critics and the scholars can sit and debate the language, and try to diagram the steps, but the dance is just beginning to get warmed up.

As Lillie writes on her blog, "SL is just the next cave wall to paint on. But paint on it we must, and can." http://www.sexsecond.blogspot.com/2007/07/07-in-10.html

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Re: We should avert our eyes.
[info]sophrosyne_sl
2007-08-16 11:31 pm UTC (link)
I *so* agree with you about the term "game " - whenever I hear it, I know the person using it is someone I'm going to have serious problems with.

As to the "something else" - that's a matter of temperament, I think. I'm not an artist by nature, though I love exercising my aesthetic sense through building, through fashion, through designing my interior spaces. But at my core, I'm a social being, and I'm vastly curious about social interactions and how they're shaped by how we see the world.

I'd never devalue your perspective - quite the opposite: I wish I really were first and foremost a creative visionary, but I'm not.

So we each approach the world from our own perspectives, and each bring to it what we can contribute best....

Thank you for your thoughts!

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From Giulio
(Anonymous)
2007-08-16 05:19 am UTC (link)
Hi Sophrosyne,

Actually I agree with all that you say. I use SL mainly, as you say, as a phone, but appreciate that others use it to _enhance themselves_ in VR (wanting for the ability to do so in RL). As a transhumanist, I support those who want to change the cards we have been given by nature.

But the point I am trying to make is another. Even if I were not a transhumanist, I would not complain against the second lifestyle of other SL users, simply because it is not my business as long as it does not affect me. So I cannot accept when immersionists who do not want (for their own reasons, all perfectly valid) to use voice in SL say or imply that nobody should be allowed to use voice. This is, I think, a luddite attitude. SL is big enough for many second lifestyles, and my second lifestyle is not others' business as long as it does not affect them.

So the analogy I am trying to establish is:

Refusing to allow _others_ to use voice in SL = Refusing to allow _others_ to enhance themselves in RL

Both attitudes are against the live and let live principle. I understand the concerns of immersionists in SL and those of bioconservatives in RL, but relinquishment (not implementing options that could be implemented) is NOT the way to go.

G.

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Re: From Giulio
[info]cyfishy
2007-08-16 12:00 pm UTC (link)
It's a very tricky issue, because what happens when a person who prefers voice interacts with a person who prefers NOT to use voice? Who "wins"? Either way, someone is "forced" to go against their preference.

And I've heard horrible things about people who use voice being downright rude and condescending to people who use text, calling them "muties" and asking what the hell is wrong with them that they won't use voice.

I personally don't think voice should be banned. But I do think people who DO use voice need to have more consideration for those of us who, for various reasons, choose not to take advantage of it. Not everybody has a microphone, but everybody has a keyboard and should be able to use it--otherwise they wouldn't get far in Second Life to begin with!

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Re: From Giulio
(Anonymous)
2007-08-16 02:14 pm UTC (link)
If I interact with a person who prefers NOT to use voice, I type!!!

I have some online friends in SL who prefer not to use voice, and I don't use voice with them. That simple.

But I also have many friends and business associates who do use voice, and I use voice with them. It is our personal choice, and we ask others to respect it instead of complaining. Like, sex between consenting adults is always good regardless of their gender (I hope everyone agrees here). I let you do it your way, and you let me do it my way.

G.

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Re: From Giulio
[info]cyfishy
2007-08-16 02:45 pm UTC (link)
If I interact with a person who prefers NOT to use voice, I type!!!

I have some online friends in SL who prefer not to use voice, and I don't use voice with them. That simple.


See, if everybody who used voice had that attitude, we wouldn't be having this debate. The conflict is really because the attitudes of people who DON'T think that way and insist that because SL has voice now, everybody MUST use it. That's why people who prefer text are upset--not because voice exists as an option but because it's an option that they feel is being crammed down their throats, like it or not.

I think the reason non-voice people are digging in their heels is because they want to keep text-only as a valid means of communication, instead of having it obliterated by the expectation of voice.

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Re: From Giulio
[info]sophrosyne_sl
2007-08-16 11:51 pm UTC (link)
Well said, Cyfishy!

I think we are responding to some really rabid discrimination, and to a real attempt to ghettoize us.

OTOH, so *many* people have so many good reasons for not using voice - it's not just weird Immersionists, but the deaf community, people who lack privacy, people who just want a break from a First Life of talking all the time. I think the numbers are with us.

Sure, if you're in a business setting or a classroom, voice adds a lot - one of the drawbacks to classes in SL is that chat-window bandwidth is so narrow - it take a *long* time to get content across.

But in the world? Pffft. Most of us have good reasons for wanting not to be in a sea of other people's chatter!

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Re: From Giulio
[info]sophrosyne_sl
2007-08-16 11:47 pm UTC (link)
Guilio - thank you so much for coming over to comment! I appreciate it immensely.

I'm interested in hearing more about your experience with people who refuse to allow others to use voice. I have disabled it on my property, for two reasons - I don't want to be shut out of conversations in my own home, and I like having chatlogs.

My position - and the positions of everyone I've heard on the Immersionist, anti-voice side, aren't opposed to the *use* of voice per se - Skype has always been an option, and technologically a far superior one to the SL voice client. Nobody takes issue with that, because that's a matter of individual choice.

What the SL implementation has done is *force* voice on bystanders. If I went to a club a month ago, and people wanted to talk to each other in Skype, it didn't affect me. Now, every idiot around me is as loud as anyone I might want to talk to, and I can't selectively tune them down or out.

Also, more important to me, is that the technology was immediately seized on by people who want to, essentially, eradicate Digital Persons - me and my people - by refusing to deal with, and ideally banning, anyone who isn't presenting an atomic-world identity for "verification" at all times.

Anyone with a sense of history should be horrified by people demanding proof of identity and outing people trying to "pass."

I'd be interested in references to anyone discriminating against the use of consensual, as opposed to broadcast, voice. As for the objections to broadcast voice, my commenters below have been far more eloquent than I could be!

Again, thank you so much for coming by, and I hope we can continue our dialog on this and other subjects!

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[info]ali_hermes
2007-08-16 01:17 pm UTC (link)
I am personally against voice, I'll say that from the start. If others want to use it, that's fine. I personally don't want to for various reasons that have been covered by many people. But I don't understand the concept of voice as being a 'big step forward'. It's not. Voice, as far as I know, has been our primary means of expression and communication for thousands of years. Before people could even write, they talked to each other. Before a baby can form coherent words or manipulate anything it uses it's voice to express it's needs. Relying on voice is if anything, the Luddite attitude here.

But it's new to Second Life! No, no it's not. People have been able to, and been using other programs to do voice over internet while in second life almost as long as it has been in existence. The only thing 'new' is that it's now included in the default program itself. Unfortunately this does create the divide between those who choose to use voice and those who don't. Quite frankly, not only to I personally not want to speak, but I don't want to hear other people as well. I prefer to listen to music, or television while on Second Life, but I can't do that if I have to stop and listen to people. I can't go back and reread a comment. I have to concentrate to separate multiple voices as they happen live rather than look back and read at my leisure. Quite simply, I find text to be a much more useful and flexible tool for communication than voice.

But mostly what I don't like about voice as standard in SL is that it creates another division, between the voice users and the non voice users. Which leads to those who will only associate with one or the other, or who insist that people do it their way, or that their way is the only true correct way to do things. Even before it was added, the battle lines were drawn. These posts and discussions are a direct result of that conflict. And of course, Voice gives the real Luddites one more tool to insist on verification that what you are in SL is what you are in RL.

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[info]sophrosyne_sl
2007-08-16 11:52 pm UTC (link)
Wise and direct as always, my love!

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[info]casiusmasala
2007-08-16 05:32 pm UTC (link)
I use voice very rarely. I love my voice and I like hearing the voice of others - once - and then I like to shut it off.

I am not fan of IM. It can make conversations choppy and disjointed. My words are filed with typos. Misunderstandings are common and drama arises due to the simplistic nature of the application. However, it's easier to control than my voice. When I do want to talk to people, I like skype. It sounds better.

My voice is the direct product of breath and body. It reveals more than my gender. It exposes the stress I am holding and hints at the kind of day I have had. My age, my health, a history of smoking, how fast I think on my feet, my level of confidence, my pessimistic tone, and so many other things that can be accurate or imagined. None of this is easy to tailor to match my avatar. It just doesn't add anything attractive. I don't want to share it all the time.

I tend to think of my avatar as me, but I don't want to bring my stressed day, my short temper, my snarky tone to Second Life at the end of a long day. I use text to tailor who I want to be, just as I chose not to have the av that Linden Labs gave me for free.

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[info]sophrosyne_sl
2007-08-16 11:53 pm UTC (link)
I *adore* your comment. It's the best thing I've read on the subject, simply. Thank you so much!

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[info]galatea_gynoid
2007-08-17 01:47 am UTC (link)
The wonderful thing about SL is that it's whatever people want it to be.

This means it's silly to debate whether SL is a game or not. For some people, it is. For some, it isn't. Arguing about it is like arguing whether chocolate is tasty or not. For some people, it is, and for some, it isn't. The only way anyone can be wrong on the subject is when they insist there's some objective fact-of-the-matter on the question rather than recognizing it as being an entirely subjective truth.

There are many different things to do in SL -- no one does them all. The progressives favor an ever expanding menu of options for people, even if many of those options are things they themselves will never engage in. The Luddites wring their hands over every new addition and complain about how the world is going to change when people have the new option.

I have no qualms about slapping the well-deserved Luddite label on those who oppose voice in SL, even if I myself may never use this feature. Will this separate SL into two communities? No, but not because it won't create new divisions. Rather, SL is *already* split into many more communities than that. And I hope to all the gods that it continues to support an ever expanding number of them. Forcing every one to do things the same way when many would prefer another option is *not* the way to build bigger communities. Might be effective in the short term, but it's not a good way to do it in the long term, not to mention the ethical implications of insisting your neighbor do things your way, or else. Gods forbid your neighbor be allowed to do things differently from yourself...

Frankly, I think Guilio is spot-on. Nice to see someone else out there who agrees with me on all this. I really get tired of people *complaining* about every new feature that comes along, as if any feature that gets added that they themselves don't like is somehow an assault on their way of life. There are so many people I see that I just want to scream at: "You are not the center of the universe! LL can and will sometimes add features that appeal to people other than you personally. Get used to it, and stop trying to oppose every new feature that comes out." But, of course, any time LL adds a feature that they're not going to use, or fixes a bug that didn't affect them personally ahead of one that did, it reminds them that they aren't the single most important being in the entire universe (or rather that not everyone recognizes that they are), and they just can't live with that, so the protests begin.

Well, whatever. Luckily, the world is a big enough place that we don't have to listen to them if we don't want to, we can find our own corner of happiness away from them. But I feel for the poor Lindens who have to put up with their constant caterwauling...

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[info]sophrosyne_sl
2007-08-18 02:09 am UTC (link)
Whoa! :)

My sweet silent little bot cuts loose! I love it!

You are, of course, absolutely right. The only thing I'd change for myself is, for those people who consider SL a game? They'd better stay the hell away from me and mine. I won't see myself and the people I love treated like game pieces!

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(Anonymous)
2007-08-19 04:50 pm UTC (link)
Galatea,

No one is saying others shouldn't be able to use voice, or features like it. People are fighting against the bigotry that appears to be coming with it. Please see more of my response to this on my blog:

http://slidentity.wordpress.com/2007/08/18/second-life-immersionists-in-second-life-a-response-to-giulio-prisco/

There is a response from Giolio and my reply.

My concern is that people are being judged and discriminated against in spite of the fact that there are a host of valid reasons not to use the feature.

Anony Mouse
# "The highest result of education is tolerance." ~ Helen Keller

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[info]galatea_gynoid
2007-08-19 06:41 pm UTC (link)
"No one is saying others shouldn't be able to use voice, or features like it."

I'm sorry, but that's a blatant, bald-faced falsehood. People by the hundreds were screaming their virtual lungs out on the Linden blogs and various forums telling them not to add this feature and complaining about how it was the end of the world as we know it. And plenty like them have done the same for every feature I've ever seen added to SL.

If you want to fight bigotry, that's great, but starting with an untruth doesn't help your message. You immediately turn off every reader who might otherwise be sympathetic to your message if you start with a distortion. From that point forward, your words will not be trusted. Many will not bother to read further. It indicates from the start that you're either willing to distort the truth, or are just honestly unaware of what's been going on -- either way, what you say from that point forward has significantly lesser value.

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(Anonymous)
2007-08-19 07:05 pm UTC (link)
Allow me to correct myself...

That's not what *I* am saying. I don't care of people use voice. I simply won't stand by while people are being discriminated against for not using it. I am fighting bigotry and oppression.

I can see that I should have been more precise, and for that, I'm sorry.

However, since you did bring it up, the fact of the matter IS that most of the populace of SL didn't want this feature, but it was put in anyway.

"People by the hundreds were screaming their virtual lungs out on the Linden blogs and various forums telling them not to add this feature and complaining about how it was the end of the world as we know it. And plenty like them have done the same for every feature I've ever seen added to SL."

This should tell you something, right? ;)

Of any other feature... sculpties, flexi-prims, etc.... the only ones I've seen an enormous outcry against are voice and identify verification. The protests against flexies and sculpties were mainly "fix the other bugs first" kinds of protest, whereas the clear message on every blog (including this one and others) about voice and ID verification has been "we don't want it." The protests against these features were orders of magnitude more than any other feature you care to mention.

That being said, I admit that I was against voice in SL to begin with. However, it's here now and there was really no stopping it, in spite of what the majority of SL wanted. Now that it IS here, it should be dealt with in a way that allows everyone to persist in SL as they see fit without fear of discrimination or marginalization.

Anony Mouse
"Down with oppressors" ~ me. ;)

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[info]galatea_gynoid
2007-08-19 08:37 pm UTC (link)
"This should tell you something, right? ;)"

Indeed, it does. It tells me that there are a lot of self-centered Luddites in SL, as I pointed out in my original reply. ;)

"However, since you did bring it up, the fact of the matter IS that most of the populace of SL didn't want this feature, but it was put in anyway."

It's truly frightening that so many people view that fact as justifying opposition to putting it in. If the majority doesn't want it, the majority doesn't need to use it. As I said in my original post, progressives favor adding as many options for people as possible, whether they personally want the option or not. Luddites or otherwise self-centered individuals oppose options they themselves don't want.

What's amusing is the levels of cognitive dissonance that must exist in the minds of people who simultaneously assert (A) the majority doesn't want it, and (B) if it's there, those of us who don't use it will be marginalized. I mean, I don't expect android-like logical precision from mere humans, but really now, this is a bit beyond normal levels of inability to think logically, don't you think?

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(Anonymous)
2007-08-19 09:30 pm UTC (link)
Galatea,

"Indeed, it does. It tells me that there are a lot of self-centered Luddites in SL, as I pointed out in my original reply. ;)"

No, it should tell you that LL had it's own reasons for implementing it and doesn't care about what the citizens want. And, indeed, that there are a very self-centered few who wanted it and, luckily for them, they got their way because LL's business aims happened to coincide with their aspirations. Also, please stop the name calling (e.g. Luddites) you'll notice that nowhere in any of my postings or replies to this blog have I resorted to calling people names, I would like the same respect in return.

They implemented voice very insensitively to people's privacy. If you look on Lillie Yifu's blog there are numerous bugs that she talks about there... like the one that leaves it on, even when you log out or kill the client. Also, there's another one where it lets you hear ALL of the conversations on the sim. FUN. Great way to invade the privacy of others.... and, also, very typical of the way LL does things. Yet we still have problems with inventory, friends lists, constant crashing, memory leaks, texture issues, shapes failing to load... etc etc etc... the list goes on.

What will happen to this, oh so vocal (pun intended), minority when LL implements something that is not to their liking?

"It's truly frightening that so many people view that fact as justifying opposition to putting it in. If the majority doesn't want it, the majority doesn't need to use it. As I said in my original post, progressives favor adding as many options for people as possible, whether they personally want the option or not. Luddites or otherwise self-centered individuals oppose options they themselves don't want."

What's truly frightening is that the vocal minority felt as though they could force it on everyone in it's current horribly broken form. Please understand, the problem is not voice in and of itself. The problem is how it was implemented.

I would rather have waited 6 months more for a really good implementation with no lag and integrated voice masking software than deal with the buggy, constantly crashing, laggy, privacy problem laden implementation we now have. I, personally, will never use it until any and all of those problems are resolved and, even then I'll think twice.

"What's amusing is the levels of cognitive dissonance that must exist in the minds of people who simultaneously assert (A) the majority doesn't want it, and (B) if it's there, those of us who don't use it will be marginalized. I mean, I don't expect android-like logical precision from mere humans, but really now, this is a bit beyond normal levels of inability to think logically, don't you think?"

What's amusing is the capacity of some people to ignore what's been happening. Please go back and read what a lot of people have been saying about this: That it will marginalize those who don't use it. I'm not saying that this marginalization *will* happen, I, personally, hope that it won't. What I am saying is that I'm fighting against the attitudes that are contributing to it happening because I can see it in small ways all over.

There are already reports of people being harassed, because they don't use voice. Also, you see it in Giulio's replies to me on my blog "I just thought you people would be more comfortable with others who wouldn't speak either." This statement is typical of the kind of attitude I want to prevent. People who believe that because some does or doesn't use a given feature that they belong with others like them. To his credit, however, he is accepting of other people's second lifestyles and states so in his reply to me there as well.

Please let me make clear that I have no problem with a mixed environment as long as everyone's right to live their life and second life as they want is respected.

Anony Mouse
"Tolerance, tolerance, tolerance..." ;)

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[info]sophrosyne_sl
2007-08-20 12:35 am UTC (link)
With all respect to my dear Galatea, I have to agree more with anonymouse here.

Was *this* voice client in the interests of the community?

On the Yes side: even this client, crappy as the tech and implementation is, makes for *much* better teaching and meetings. Who cares? All the corporate and FL educational interests, a huge market LL wants to entice in. Who else? Anybody taking an in-world class, or going to a public event: you just get a whole lot more data faster when it's delivered by voice.

On the No side: no provision was made for Residents whose SL identity isn't equal to their FL identity. Not only that, Voice was announced at the same time as several crackdowns on identity play in SL: the "verification" measures, the shutdown of doll-oriented stores, the corporate messages from LL encouraging Residents to spy on each other, the staetment that undefined inappropriate behaviors would be prohibited.

Who wins? FL corporate interests. Who loses? Immersionists.

Next issue, please - this one's done.

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(Anonymous)
2007-08-20 06:45 am UTC (link)
I think Galatea has said it very well:

"It's truly frightening that so many people view that fact as justifying opposition to putting it in. If the majority doesn't want it, the majority doesn't need to use it. As I said in my original post, progressives favor adding as many options for people as possible, whether they personally want the option or not. Luddites or otherwise self-centered individuals oppose options they themselves don't want"

Take gay rights. I am straight and hormonally unable to find other men sexually attractive, but support those who do and wish to eliminate all references to gender from legislation related to marriage, taxes, adoption, inheritance etc. For the simple reason that if something makes other people happier without making me less happy, I think it is something good.

So, even if I perfectly understand why some people prefer not to use voice, I ask the same understanding on their side - which, I am happy to see, is not in discussion here.

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