Sophrosyne Stenvaag ([info]sophrosyne_sl) wrote,
@ 2008-02-29 15:48:00
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Entry tags:business, digital people, meme

Argent's Meme: A Statement of Principles
I haven't blogged in two weeks! I haven't been around much at all: the Other Personality's terrifically busy, and my time's been drastically limited.

Which sucks, because *I'm* terrifically busy.

Extropia's gone from one to six sims this month, and it's my job to get them rented up. I'm organizing two major events, each, oh, five times the size of anything I've done before. I'm paying tier on a gorgeous empty mall, and need to get commercial tenants in. I've got a page-long list of people I need to meet with on various things. And, I have a family that means the world to me, who I want to put first - but some of putting them first means working to keep me and the Chairman solvent, and get some other people paying tier in Extropia! So, not a good time to have my time squeezed to practically zero.

Anyhoo, I had the honor of participating in a panel debate yesterday at Orange Island, on Augmentation vs. Immersion. I was thrilled and a little intimidated to be included (and many thanks to Lillie Yifu for recommending me!): the moderator and panelists were people I deeply admire: Tom Bukowsky (Tom Boellstorff), author of the upcoming Coming of Age in Second Life, who moderated; Gwyneth Llewellyn and I represented the Immersionists, and Hiro Pendragon (Ron Blechner) and Giulio Perhaps (Giulio Prisco) showed up for the Augmentationists.

We'd discussed a number of debate questions in advance, from the narrow and legalistic to the political to the abstract - but we ended up being given five minutes each to speak freely, then time to respond. Between the makeup of the panel (all friends, all easygoing people), the lack of questions that got at disagreements, and the enormous amount of unmoderated audience participation, nothing really came of the hour. The best thing to be said about it was, everybody got to talk, and nobody left thinking that one "side" or the other was weird, hostile or illegitimate.

So, I'd chalked up the experience as "pleasant but insubstantial," and went fishing. Now fishing? That was a good time ($L1 scripted rods and open fishing on Tycho Beach, right by the flagpole)! But, [info]argent_bury  asked for a chatlog, and responded with a critical analysis of the issues that *should* have been raised yesterday.

Go read her post. I'll wait right here. It's really worth it.

I think her first point cuts to the heart of the real distinction in perspectives: is SL for you a place or a tool? Everything else, from standards of identity and trust to "A/S/L," follows from that.

Despite the huge differences in our personalities, and in our lives in SL, Argent and I see the world in just about exactly the same way, so her nine points are mine as well. I'll just add a few paraphrasings:

  • I live here. Maybe to you it's Vegas, or Tijuana, a place to avoid responsibility. To me, it's home. So, if you treat me and mine like you're on Spring Break? It won't go well. Also, I have a responsible job with a group that's made a significant investment in SL. You want grounds for trust? There you go: I'm a stakeholder here.
  • You can talk to me about your life and whatever's important in it. I'm happy to listen and to help. When I reciprocate, I'll share about my life too - which, see above, is *here.* I'm not holding back; I'm giving you all I've got. And yes, I may freak out on you about how busy I am, how I'm feeling the burden of my job, how I wish I had more family time, how I wish I had a weekend to spend tied up, gagged and fucked brainless. You ask for it, you'll get it. :P
  • I think the business community, where I spend a lot of my time, is the wrong place to look for people who don't respect immersionists. The business people who don't get SL, who talk trash about  finding, say, a goth chick with wings and neko eyes at their meeting?  They're not inworld. The people who are, they understand that SL is a foreign market much like any other, and when you do business in one, you learn and respect their customs if you want to make a sale.  The business and content creation communities get that, and I've never had anything but respect in them.  Government and education?  You'll find a lot of two year old playdo avs, ignorance and disregard for customs. They don't have to respect or serve their customers in the same way in their first lives, and they seem much more likely to be oblivious to the culture in SL as well.
That's all I've got.  If your principles or perspectives are different, please answer Argent's meme call, and drop a link in the comments to her post.  *This* is the discussion we didn't have yesterday at Orange Island, and the one that needs to be had, for us to build trust across differing world views.

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[info]gracemcdunnough
2008-03-01 12:40 am UTC (link)
I'm reposting my comments from dandellion's blog to here. Yes I know it's lame, tough. I think the discussion was thwarted in part because well, no one did their homework (i.e. read up on the concept) and the moderator failed to provide an adequate introduction, in part I think because Hiro was horrifically late. But the definitions are important, but *only* as to serve as a framework about which we can start to understand the richness of possibilities that immersive spaces provide, not to box people or ideas in,and certainly not to be absolute in any way. The definitions in and of themselves are distinctions without merit, however they do provide a lens by which we can focus and attain a deeper appreciation for what it might be to be “wholly separate”, or what the implications are of not being such. These are important lessons, a stringent definition exercise is time and energy that could be better spent embracing the innovative ideas that might emerge if we are able to hold these seemingly juxtaposed (although not entirely so) concepts in balance.

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[info]sophrosyne_sl
2008-03-01 11:13 pm UTC (link)
You're definitely right in your criticisms: after 22 emails discussing and prepping debate questions, I was shocked to get started off with "Soph, talk for 5 minutes!"

The lovefest was a nice thing, but there are principled disagreements that go beyond personal choice: what level of identification do you require in business, frex.

There's definitely room in the market for a deeper and richer exploration of these issues.

(Reply to this) (Parent)
As usual, you've done me one better
(Anonymous)
2008-03-01 01:48 am UTC (link)
Great post, and great paraphrasing. You've done me one better, as usual.

Honestly, I look up to you, love. I play, and I'm trying to create now and give back to the world, but you work, and in my book that gives you a lot more legitimacy than I'll ever have.

And, working among atomic people you've got a lot better handle on what attitudes towards the digital are. Every time I write a "meta" post I worry, "Am I overreacting? Are things really that bad?" Right now I don't think they are, and may never be, if we keep the dialogue open.

Honestly, I'd much rather spend time teaching myself to build better and making something that affects how people feel and think. In fact, I think I'll get on that right now.

@Grace - I agree that good definitions can help dialogue, even if it's just acting a sort of shorthand in conversation. I'm personally pretty fond of the "original" definitions of the terms posted at slecreativity. I guess what I wanted to do with the meme I posted was to see just how able those definitions are at covering the broad range of convictions individuals have about SL.

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Re: As usual, you've done me one better
[info]argent_bury
2008-03-01 01:50 am UTC (link)
/me sighs.

That was me, Argent, posting above. I'm into pseudonymity, not anonymity. :P

(Reply to this) (Parent)
Re: As usual, you've done me one better
[info]sophrosyne_sl
2008-03-01 11:17 pm UTC (link)
I think we complement each other, love, personally and as voices of the Digital community.

Gods know, without your strength and support, I couldn't keep doing this -

(Reply to this) (Parent)

[info]http://getopenid.com/dandellion
2008-03-01 03:14 am UTC (link)
You hit the point with biz that fails to recognize the world and its customs. That is some kind of final test, one either succeed this world/game/biz or not. And we witnessed a lot of people, companies and organizations that failed and went away because they just insisted on their way instead of observing the world and seeing opportunities on every step. Hopefully, they will learn better in the future.

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[info]giulio.myopenid.com
2008-03-01 12:29 pm UTC (link)
Well I am all for "pleasant but insubstantial" chats if that means having a nice discussion without fighting, and would reverse the omelette: the fact that at least some of us can accept others in their terms is __very__ sustantial, it means that perhaps our species has a chance. More thoughts:

http://transumanar.com/index.php/site/more_on_digital_persons_immersionism_vs_augmentationism/

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[info]sophrosyne_sl
2008-03-01 11:18 pm UTC (link)
Giulio, you're quite right. As always, I treasure your openness and good humor. You're really a delight to work with!

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Speaking a different language
[info]digitaladoption
2008-03-03 01:01 pm UTC (link)
Hi Sophrosyne,

I think the point dandellion makes is valid, but works both ways, the immersionist do a great job of alienating the 'business' community as well. (though its not just the business community that usually fails to recognise the immersionists!)

Its not willing intolerance, its a failure to understand AND explain - in this I think Orange made a mistake in taken 4 participants from the SL community, as they speak the same language even though their views may differ.

Posted my take on the discussion, the even and list of 3 over on http://digado.nl/immersionism-and-augmentation.html 'from an Augmentist point of view'.

(Reply to this) (Thread)
Re: Speaking a different language
[info]sophrosyne_sl
2008-03-03 05:30 pm UTC (link)
Rick - do you mean we alienate them by acting in ways they don't understand or approve of?

Or do you mean "alienate" in the way that they treat us - with vocal hostility and open contempt? Unrefutable accusations of "escapism," for example?

I've never seen immersionist hostility to business in SL - quite the opposite, as many of us *are* SL entrepreneurs and content creators, as we have a greater stake in SL as a marketplace and community than any external enterprise ever could.

As to the first, well, that's true of every minority *by definition* - we talk funny, dress funny, eat weird food, listen to "that noise" instead of proper music, believe in radicalism and superstition instead of proper politics and religion. That's what a minority *is.*

We're not doing it to piss off the mainstream culture. Frankly, we spend most of our time *hiding* from the mainstream culture, because we don't like being on the receiving end of anger and scorn.

But when people from the mainstream culture take offense at our self-expression? That's not us being antagonistic, most of the time. That's them being prejudiced.

Thankfully, and surprisingly, there was not a bit of that prejudice expressed at the Orange Island event - which as Giulio says, gives some hope for humanity.

(Reply to this) (Parent)
Re: Speaking a different language
[info]http://getopenid.com/dandellion
2008-03-03 05:55 pm UTC (link)
I am very interested in how somebody who spend time, creativity and (more often than not) money is alienating business or any not so immersed sub-community.

You are mentioning failure to understand and explain. Well, I am not asserting that I understand everything in SL, that moment I will write a so-long-and-thanks-for-all-the-fish post and close my blog. But I am sure that I do understand a lot of sub-communities and lifestyles in SL. You know, beside hanging around meeting people, exploring sims building and writing, I do have business meetings in SL, I do (though don't like to) talk as my human, meet people who I know in meatspace too, I even used voice (via Skype though). So don't tell me that I don't understand augmentatist position cause I am augmentationist (which is the point of What Are Immersion And Augmentation (http://metaverse.acidzen.org/2008/what-are-immersion-and-augmentation) post). I do extend my human into metaverse via digital persons.

Only form of "intolerance" one can see from me (and I believe that is the case with Soph and many more) is reaction on griefing and sometimes on noob avatars of the several months old residents. Well, maybe the later is not a quite nice behaviour, but if you came into the virtual world, as a augmentative businessman, then show a little understanding and respect for the environment and people around you and get some hair and something bretter than plain color skin.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)
Re: Speaking a different language
[info]sophrosyne_sl
2008-03-03 10:00 pm UTC (link)
Rick: I really don't know what you're talking about here. I never mentioned a failure to understand or explain, or accused you of ignorance.

The only thing I've criticized you for is for applying the "escapist" level in the face of evidence to the contrary.

I'm not angry, and I don't disrespect you - and I think that, as was the case among the panelists, our points of agreement vastly outnumber our disagreements.

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Re: Speaking a different language
[info]digitaladoption
2008-03-03 11:30 pm UTC (link)
"The only thing I've criticized you for is for applying the "escapist" level in the face of evidence to the contrary."

1) Well if you use Dandellions Wikipedia copy/paste definition you've shown it to the contrary - as I commented on. That is not, however, the entire definition and certainly not the way I see it as I've explained. As you said, there is really no point in going over the yes/no thing, but it would certainly help to counter the right arguments and definitions and ironically again, dandellion who was quite right to point this out in her blogpost.

"...failure to understand or explain, or accused you of ignorance."

2) That was the point and the context of the post you've linked to, and the debate 'a mix of cultures' was about, understanding between 2 'cultures' rather then to concern ourselves with exactly the above, definitions :)

(Reply to this) (Parent)
Re: Speaking a different language
[info]digitaladoption
2008-03-03 11:43 pm UTC (link)
I am very interested in how somebody who spend time, creativity and (more often than not) money is alienating business or any not so immersed sub-community.

Only form of "intolerance" one can see from me (and I believe that is the case with Soph and many more) is reaction on griefing and sometimes on noob avatars of the several months old residents.

Sophrosyne Stenvaag: “Thankfully, and surprisingly, there was not a bit of that prejudice expressed at the Orange Island event - which as Giulio says, gives some hope for humanity.”

You need these kind of confrontations, understand and contradict the 'not so immersed sub-community' with these prejudices to help those people with these beliefs understand you. In avoiding them you alienate yourself as well. This works both ways.

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Re: Speaking a different language
(Anonymous)
2008-03-03 11:44 pm UTC (link)
ugh, the first 2 lines are quoted from dandellion, third from Sophrosyne, last my reaction.

(Reply to this) (Parent)
sorry for the late comment
[info]damastarostin
2008-03-24 04:25 am UTC (link)
Great Blog and very interesting topics! I was so immersed, that I didn't realize that this particular topic had become so politicized! I do see how members of the business community could lash out at us by citing escapism. They fear what they can't understand or control. And they control every aspect of RL... I guess that's a big reason why I come to SL. They have launched many a human into clinical depression in RL, don't let them do it to us in SL too! I'm sure that they are having a big hissy because they don't know how to plug us into their silly target markets. I don't know what they do on their islands, but i'm sure that there are no focus groups with hermaphrodite faeries, cyborgs or vampires. The "two year old playdo avs" that you cited are probably there because they pay too much attention to the business community who controls them in RL. The way I see it, the business community would do well to pay more attention to those who are immersed. I have to hand it to the peeps at Intel Island who came up with the sunflower thing! That was F...ing brilliant!

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